The Death Penalty
By Rummuser. Filed in Uncategorized |
I am generally for the death penalty, where there is one hundred percent proof of the accused’s guilt, but have often been torn between my idea that justice will only be served by taking a life for a life and the possibility that an innocent percent may be punished for a crime committed by someone else.
The subject was very nicely dealt with by my young blogger friend Ashok in two posts dated May 11,2009 and May 12, 2009 in his blog “I truly am not as smart as Einstein“. Both the articles are worth reading for the reason that in India, we are now faced with some very uncomfortable decisions arising out of mercy petitions from convicted terrorists and other low life.
Ashok is a very serious young man with an exciting career and life ahead of him and I hope to make his personal acquaintance one of these days. He will be very interested in another story that is making waves in the USA just now about which, I have been able to get some authentic information from an Op-Ed article in the New York Times.
I am sure that there are many voices for and against the death penalty but this is one of those issues which, I am afraid will remain unresolved in the foreseeable future.
Tuesday, June 9th 2009 at 00:24 |
Death sentence, is as you say, rather difficult topic as far as determining where one stands on the issue is concerned. The article in the New York times represented my worst fears whenever I speak for the death penalty. Its better to keep 10 guilty men alive instead of murdering one innocent person. I will try and follow up on that case and see where it goes. The US Supreme Court is not the institution it once was I suppose. God knows where the future of the judiciary itself is heading in the midst of politics.
For a long time, I have written posts on my blog only to come back and see no comments. At times it was disheartening but over time I matured over it. But in all honesty I am overwhelmed by your very kind words sir. One is deeply greatful in the face of such generous appreciation and words of praise. Looking forward to writing and reading as always!
Ashok´s last blog post..Vacation thoughts
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 18:00
Ashok, you must see my other comment as well as my response to Mike’s comments.
Tuesday, June 9th 2009 at 00:26 |
Let me also say thank you for your regular comments. It honestly is good motivation to continue to write when one knows people are reading and offering their comments to that effect!
Ashok´s last blog post..Vacation thoughts
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 18:00
Your blog certainly deserves more readership and it will happen. Just keep plugging away. I love to visit and comment and tease you.
Noor Reply:
June 13th, 2009 at 18:48
I second Mr Ramana here!
Rummuser Reply:
June 15th, 2009 at 22:17
Thank you.
Tuesday, June 9th 2009 at 01:10 |
I’ve mixed feelings about it. Some people who have committed horrendous crimes no longer deserve life, but who are we to take it from them?
Mike Goad´s last blog post..Mea culpa on replies to blog comments
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 17:58
I wish that I could answer that. I have got a friend who lost his son to terrorists during our 26/11 Mumbai carnage. I have blogged about this immediately after the incident. The lone terrorist who was apprehended is undergoing trial in India just now following our judicial process to the letter. If my friend or I could lay our hands on that so and so, we would gladly take his life without a trial. Who are we? Just affected parent and family friend. A life at its prime has been extinguished by this low life, and we should allow it to live at tax payers’ expense!
Tuesday, June 9th 2009 at 01:11 |
This topic is certainly a mess. The problem begins with the fact that US courts routinely disallow evidence that is certain, but was acquired by methods deemed unconstitutional or dismissed based on other legal technicalities. The result is that it is always plausible that something important was not presented to a jury.
The next problem is that the cost of a single death penalty case is upwards of $16 million (so I have heard), which is the cost of lawyers haggling over the evidence – even if the crime was committed in front of a large group of witnesses. The incentive for the lawyers is to drag the case on as long as possible, confuse the evidence, but make it impossible to either clearly convict or clearly exonerate the accused. Thus, a young lawyer can begin a career with a young killer as his client, and expect to retire 40 years later after a lifetime of litigation – paid for by the taxpayer – with his client still filing appeals.
Throw in activists and a media who want to publicly argue that 99% of the death row inmates are innocent … Yes, the death penalty is a mess in the US.
Looney´s last blog post..
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 17:55
It is a mess everywhere Looney. It is no less a problem here. That is exactly what Ashok has brought out in his blog. It is difficult to discuss this without getting too emotional about it.
Tuesday, June 9th 2009 at 01:42 |
I am against the death penalty Full Stop! Just because someone else takes a life it does not give me the right to do the same. I am not a political animal and normally stay clear of these discussions. I mention the cases below for demonstration purposes only.
The Guildford Four and the Maguire Seven were two sets of people wrongfully convicted in the 1970s by British courts or later had their convictions quashed. Tensions were very high in the 70s and I am sure that if the death penalty was available at that time, there were plenty who would have liked to see it administered.
The Guildford Four were convicted of bombings carried out by the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) and the Maguire Seven were convicted of handling explosives found during the investigation into the bombings. Both groups’ convictions were declared unsafe and reversed after they had served time in prison.
Grannymar´s last blog post..Food Monday ~ No Cook Fudge Fingers
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 17:54
Grannymar. I rest my case. You win!
Tuesday, June 9th 2009 at 02:59 |
I agree that the trouble with the death penalty is too many innocent people are convicted. Thanks for pointing me to Ashok’s blog.
Jean Browman–Cheerful Monk´s last blog post..A Dull Life? I Don’t Believe It.
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 17:53
Thanks for visiting Ashok Jean. It is bound to mean the world to him.
Tuesday, June 9th 2009 at 06:26 |
Ramana, as a matter of principle, I do not believe that we are justified in capital punishment. I don’t think we can justify it as an effective preventive measure and I find it inappropriate to seek vengeance – even though that may seem emotionally satisfying. That does not mean that I don’t understand the impetus people feel who are so grievously wronged by another in such an unimaginable way. I believe that an eye-for-an-eye is an endless merry-go-round of escalation that ultimately leaves the populace blind.
It reminds me of a story describing the essence of machismo:
God visits a man and says that he can have anything he wants. The only caveat is that his neighbor will get twice as much of whatever the man gets.
The response is swift: “Remove one of my eyes!”
Conrad´s last blog post..A Serious, Sad Event in Kansas…
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 17:53
Well argued and I accept your position. I myself am veering round to the view that perhaps I should decide on a case by case basis rather than be either pro or anti capital punishment.
Tuesday, June 9th 2009 at 09:12 |
The Innocence Project is doing some work to help those people who may be facing the death penalty, but some of the evidence in the case does not add up.
However, to rape and murder an innocent child should not go without punishment as long as the evidence points to the person who perpetrated it.
I find myself on the fence with this one. I want the innocent to come out all right – whether innocent victim or innocently accused.
Robyn
Robyn McMaster´s last blog post..Making Changes
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 17:51
You may just be on the right track here Robyn. Perhaps the answer is in deciding on a case by case rather than take rigid yes or no stances.
Tuesday, June 9th 2009 at 13:51 |
You have caught my eye again old man. I worked for the International Justice Project defending death row inmates in the US a few years back. I am against the death penalty because of the number of injustices I dealt with first hand during this time.
You will rarely find a case where there is 100% evidence of an accused’s guilt- so you may as well be anti-death penalty, as human error and judgement play a part in every case. And of course there are cases where DNA evidence has cast doubt on a case, after execution.
My work on death row involved defending mentally ill, juvenile and foreign nationals on death row. There are a high percentage of very ill people on death row, and I believe that they should be in suitable care hospitals and not in a cell 23 hours a day pending execution. I also believe that it is wrong to execute these people, as they are not as culpable as those without illness. Although I would add that a victim’s family may not agree, and I can sympathise with this point of view. A moot point indeed.
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 17:39
Of course a moot point my young lawyer. We shall do that bit of arguing at a convenient time. I wish that we had had enough time to discuss these experiences of yours the last time we met. I shall make it a point to do so the next time around.
Tuesday, June 9th 2009 at 21:35 |
The issue of a death penulty is a sensitive one. If our judiciary systems were perfect I would support it. But, at the moment, they are messy. I have seen many a times people walking out from the courts being free men, when they had committed crimes in broad day light amd in full view of witnesses and innocent people rot in jail because they did not have those powerful lawyers or they were not well connected to the powers that be. For that reason I do ot support capital punishment.
Lizwi´s last blog post..Fact or opinion
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 17:35
Lizwi, I seem to be in a minority of one on this subject! Okay, I shall reexamine my views.
Tikno Reply:
June 16th, 2009 at 15:30
I agree with Lizwi
Tikno´s last blog ..Alexander, New Born and The Miracle In The Womb
Wednesday, June 10th 2009 at 02:12 |
Did you happen to watch a Tamil movie called ‘Virumandi’. If you get a chance please watch it. Kamal Hassan has acted in that movie and the story is perfect for how an innoncent could be proved by mistake for a crime which he was never involved. It made me to think.
My personal opinion is that life sentence should not exist and the criminal should be made to live isolated. This will help him a lot to think and probably if he changes could change more like minded criminals. Life sentence just reflects the reaction of the affected person or it is another judgement to satisfy the affected. But if we could think clearly, who are we to take a person’s life?
Balaji S Rajan´s last blog post..Neighbours – Part 1
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 17:35
Balaji, I am so happy to see you here and commenting. Unfortunately, I do not see any movies, Tamil, Hindi or English. Not my cup of tea unless someone literally drags me to something outstanding. No, I have not seen ‘Virumandi’.
From the responses that I have been getting, I am beginning to wonder if I need to change my views on the death penalty!
Tikno Reply:
June 16th, 2009 at 15:34
Agree with Balaji S Rajan’s question: “who are we to take a person’s life?”
Tikno´s last blog ..Alexander, New Born and The Miracle In The Womb
Wednesday, June 10th 2009 at 05:21 |
My son’s mother-in-law is a criminal lawyer. She says she doesn’t ask her “client” if he did it. Her job is to see he gets a fair trail.
One of her “clients” is in prison for life in CA because he tied a child’s wrists to ankles-open leg style, raped & murdered her. This prisoner crocheted two dolls with clothes, beautifully done, for my son’s & his wife’s child. I find this unimaginable, except he must be a different person at different times. Mentally ill.
Rummuser Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 17:32
Another lawyer, Beardeye, young and full of enthusiasm and a great deal of love for me, has commented below. I expect that I have to take a good strong look at my views on the death penalty.
Wednesday, June 10th 2009 at 20:38 |
NO Rummuser, Don’t change your opinion. All of the above never had a close person murdered. I haven’t either but I agree with you. Murder is too easy to do & get away with that. Some murderers want to be executed & aren’t allowed it. The cost to the taxpayers for life behind bars! To HECK with the lawyers that try forever to get their murderers off free at taxpayers expense!
As for keeping them in prison to later go free-Ha!
Ashok, Do you really believe “It’s better to keep 10 guilty men alive instead of murdering one innocent person.” So those 10 can murder more people they don’t like?
Everyone is afraid of that Commandment “Thou shalt not kill”.
Conrad Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 04:14
bikehikebabe, I am unsure why you assume that none of us have had a close person murdered. I have had this and have hidden out for 3 days with my family until the killer was apprehended.
[rq=1038,0,blog][/rq]Time to Reopen the Whine Bar!
Rummuser Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 16:54
Wow! That is some story there Conrad. A blog in the making?
Rummuser Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 17:04
I have not quite changed my opinion. All that I have done is to agree to decide on a case to case basis.
Thursday, June 11th 2009 at 00:20 |
Yes I do believe it when I say its better to keep 10 guilty men than killing one innocent person. For when an innocent person is killed, the state is responsible and behind the state lies its population. So what we are doing is making innocent people murdrers as well. I believe that innocence needs to be protected with more vigour than killing the guilty. I remain a supporter of the capital punishment but only once we have sufficient mechanisms to allow for some kind of fairness and chance of justice for the wrongly convicted. What we have now is a start but definitely not sufficient. The point in case being that of Troy Davis. Our judiciaries are overburdened and well they simply lack the motivation to pay each case its due attention especially when a man’s life is at stake.
Ramanna sir, I can understand with referrence to Kasab, the sentiments of your friend. Given a chance I would like to see him hanged as well. My only point being that the stipulated capital punishment should be the destination in the journey of a fair trial. I believe in this case the evidence is overwhelming. One can only wait and watch!
Rummuser Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 17:01
Same response as for the other comment.
Thursday, June 11th 2009 at 00:49 |
I think having gone through the discussions, I still find it difficult to form a concrete opinion on the subject. The case by case approach seems safe and satisfies both ends of the spectrum, but the fact of the matter is that courts today do in fact take each case in itself and yet we see a plethora of wrongful convictions. Difficult as the choice maybe, the situation demands a black and white stand by us. I would ideally love to see those henious crimes resulting in the awarding of capital punishment, but the intricate infirmities in our systems donot yet provide a condusive atmosphere for such best case scenarios.
To further my point about killing innocents as unacceptable. If after hanging an innocent man it is discovered he was innocent, it does amount to murder. Are we willing to take responsibility there? The judges are given immunity from prosecution for their acts as judges. Lets assume such immunity does not exist for a second. In this strange world without immunity, judges are abettors to the crime for instigating the execution. We as people who have paid for the instruments of executions in the form of taxes, are accessories to the murder too. Where false allegations of an offence are made against a person and it is found so, the person making such false allegation can be punished with the same level of punishment as could be awarded to the falsely accused if he was convicted. So are we willing to let the courts give us the death sentence once the man killed is found innocent later on? Are we atleast willing to do time for that? These are serious questions we should ask ourselves.
[rq=785,0,blog][/rq]Vacation thoughts
Rummuser Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 17:01
Ashok, the point that is missed in this taking stands is this; If we can speed up and make more efficient, the investigating and prosecuting systems, why should a killer be supported and kept alive by tax payers funds? I am all for repairing the system. I think however that we must take a stand on a case to case basis.
Friday, June 12th 2009 at 00:35 |
Given the constraints, I guess the case by case approach, though not flawless, is the meeting ground for the pro and anti death penalty camps. But having seen the system at close quarters, I am still not convinced of its abilities to efficiently adopt, even this simple an approach.
I have had a close family member come at the receiving end of a rather unpardonable crime, an acid attack to be precise. It put the family through hell and back. And the perpetrator is out there free. What disappointed us was his ability to walk away from it as if nothing happened.
My point is retributive theory is not the best way to do this. The tax payer angle does make sense, but is it the evolved response? The idea is to protect society and in particular referrence to child rape, most victims keep silent especially when a relative is involved because they don’t want to be responsible for a death. So will this death penalty achieve the certainty of punishment that we all really not want is the question. The point to introspect on for all of us is if we desire certainty over punishment over its severity. I myself remain divided over the issue of death penalty. All I am doing is presenting the spectrum of opinion as it is.
But I find the discussion rather enlightening and productive. Thank you one and all for that.
[rq=3409,0,blog][/rq]Vacation thoughts
Rummuser Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 17:49
For that perpetrator of the acid attack, there are methods to settle scores. Have you got the gumption? They did it in Hyderabad. Being a vedantin, I can also assure you that he will get his just desserts sooner or later.
Friday, June 12th 2009 at 14:56 |
It’s certainly an interesting issue with many different opinions. I live in the UK where the death penalty was abolished in the 1960′s, and most people here don’t agree with the death penalty. I was talking to someone from Thailand the other day and she couldn’t believe that if someone murder’s someone else they only go to prison. It’s interesting how different cultures think about things like this differently, and I think both points are valid. The problem is, and you said, you can’t always be 100% sure.
Rummuser Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 17:41
Thank you for dropping by and commenting. As you have probably seen from some of the other comments, I am veering around to the stand of case by case decision making.
Saturday, June 13th 2009 at 18:53 |
I have heard about this case before, and I sent a couple of emails through Amnesty to support that Troy Davis gets a hearing. I’m not sure where I stand when it comes to execution , but I know that it’s something very serious and it can’t be decided just like that.
It’s just awful! Inshallah justice may prevail.
Noor´s last blog .."Cause basically this place is needing instruments of harmony, Spreading my philosophy of love and inspiration…"*
Rummuser Reply:
June 15th, 2009 at 22:18
That is an honest enough opinion and I salute you for expressing it.
Monday, June 15th 2009 at 21:03 |
There is one more thing that bothers me here: If we accept the notion that there are a large number of erroneous death penalty convictions, is it acceptable simply to change them to life in prison? It seems to me that the standard of conviction should be the same, regardless of the sentence. This reasoning went to a silly limit here in California where psycho killers were quickly out on the streets again, so we came up with the “three strikes” rule to take the decision making away from the judges.
The judicial system has to concern itself with what is true or false, right or wrong, certain or uncertain. When people start paying to corrupt the decisions, we rightly are offended. My sense is that political correctness and lawyerisms corrupt the system in a way that is just as bad as a rich person paying off the judge.
Looney´s last blog ..
Rummuser Reply:
June 15th, 2009 at 22:20
The answer to the dilemma here, as it is in India, is that law and justice are not static and keep evolving in democracies. What in reality it means that is that bad decisions keep slipping through the cracks in the system. I really do not have an answer to the various problems on this issue but, would like to see more speed and transparency in the whole process.
Tuesday, June 16th 2009 at 15:26 |
Maybe you have knows my view towards this issue in my previous post “Capital Punishment Against Bali Bomber”, that is disagree with capital punishment.
Tikno´s last blog ..Alexander, New Born and The Miracle In The Womb
Rummuser Reply:
June 16th, 2009 at 17:15
Yes, I have also commented on your post about my take on that. Let us agree to disagree.
Wednesday, July 22nd 2009 at 09:52 |
Terrorist must get this.
arya@bali car rental´s last blog ..Quick Quote
Rummuser Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 17:16
One way of looking at it certainly.
Wednesday, September 2nd 2009 at 07:48 |
The economics of lifetime incarceration vs. execution are not (literally) the bottom line. Is denying one’s freedom/liberty justice when one has denied others life itself? This is the decision each nation makes and has to live with.
Sunday, October 11th 2009 at 17:08 |
Death sentence is one of the highly debated topic worldwide. If found guilty then there should be no compromise, but the level of the crime also has to be taken into account. I have known cases where cold blooded things are done by criminals and they are acquitted.
Thursday, November 5th 2009 at 11:11 |
I have heard that in certain countries more cruel and corporal punishments exists than death penalty. Obviously death is ultimate, but living dead is so absurd and I feel that is the maximum punishment a human can receive.