Lawyers.
By Rummuser. Filed in Nostalgia, People, Relationships |Tags: Emergency, Lawyers, The legal profession
Our young friend, lawyer-in-the-making Ashok, has given a topic which must bring forth a number of interesting posts. I cannot think of anyone of the ten LCBs not having anything to do with lawyers at some point of time in their lives.
My first acquaintance with a lawyer was when I was a child of four or perhaps five. A close personal friend of my father’s would visit the city where we were then living to attend to some High Court matters from a small mofussil town. He was larger than my father in size and smoked huge big cigars. The total picture was one of an intimidating personality. Although he was quite friendly, I was always in a bit of awe of him and often thought that it would be nice to grow up to be a lawyer like him and smoke big cigars!
When I grew up and got to know him, I found him to be anything but intimidating, but his story was fascinating nevertheless. He lived the life of a bachelor all his life, taking care of his widowed mother though he had a mistress tucked away conveniently in that small town, where everyone knew about it but accepted him for he was a great man and a pillar of the local society. There are many stories as to why he chose to live like that, and the one that appealed to me was that his orthodox family refused him permission to marry outside his caste and so he decided not to marry at all. My next ambition then became to live a life of a bachelor with a mistress tucked away in a nice corner somewhere.
That providence decided otherwise about both the ambitions is now known to all my readers and so let me proceed with my next lawyer acquaintance. Another friend of my father’s sent his son to study for the bar in the same city and he stayed in the college hostel. This student was all of ten years older than I was at that time and for me it was a great wonder that this guy living in a hostel and studying to be a lawyer could have all the freedom that was denied to me living with my parents. That man, incidentally one the many Ambis in my life, eventually did become a successful lawyer in the mofussil areas and also became quite a rake. Luckily I did not have much to do with him to influence me into emulating him.
Fast forward to my adulthood, working life and the national emergency, when I had to face the might of police highhandedness, about which I had posted here. The lawyer who was hired for me by a very close friend became a great personal friend and I could not but help admire him for the way he took on the police and the judiciary during the emergency to fight my case. That he won the case was entirely due to his high skills as a lawyer and the way he had the police official squirming in the cross examination was a sight that I shall never forget.
Subsequently, I had occasions to rub shoulders with some of India’s best legal brains in the area of trademark protection in Mumbai and Delhi and have nothing but great admiration for their pioneering work when the judiciary did not really understand intellectual property rights the way it does now.
After that experience, I have had nothing personal happen to me calling for the need of a lawyer, except to accompany some friends for attesting as witness for wills and testaments when too I have come across some very nice lawyers not at all like lawyers in the jokes one comes across so often. Peculiarly enough, we do not have jokes about lawyers and other professionals as much as the West does. Our humour tends to be highly ethnic in nature and the legal profession has therefore been spared much damage that the Western humourists have caused to their lawyers.
I quite like the enthusiasm and commitment that our proposer of this subject Ashok, has for the legal profession and I hope that he will become a highly successful one and here is wishing him all the very best that life can offer to enable him to do so. After all, I have already decided that he will be my lawyer for all future needs!
This post is the Loose Consortium Bloggers’ Friday post when Ashok, Conrad, Grannymar, Magpie11, Marianna, Maria, Gaelikaa, Helen, Judy , and I write one post each on the same topic. Please visit the other blogs too to have different views on this fascinating subject.
Friday, November 13th 2009 at 21:07 |
I join you in wishing Ashok well, with all his future plans.
You covered the country and the subject well Ramana. Take a bow.
Rummuser Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:11
Thank you your Highness! Will you now announce that henceforth I shall be known as Sir Ramana?
Friday, November 13th 2009 at 21:28 |
I read your post regarding your situation during the Emergency Indira Gandhi. I applaud you for going the distance for a principal! So many people today would have settled and for many years have to defend “that they really didn’t do anything, it was just easier to settle”. Good post!
Rummuser Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:10
Thank you. I got off lightly compared to many others who suffered greater indignities and problems.
Friday, November 13th 2009 at 21:34 |
Like I was saying in Ashok’s comments—how u say english so good? it not yer talk u do there. i luv u & yer posts.
Rummuser Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:08
Pure luck BHB, pure luck. I was born in a country with English as its official language then, and had excellent teachers who not only taught me the language, but also the interest in reading and improving it constantly.
Friday, November 13th 2009 at 22:49 |
I remember reading about your run in with the police. Good one.
If I had a pound for every youngster I taught whose parents wanted him or her to be a lawyer or who wanted to be one of their own volition I’d be able to fly to India to visit. And these were 9 to 11 year olds. I wonder how many actually made it?
Good, upright lawyers are essential for the maintenance of our much vaunted liberties.
Rummuser Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:07
Two of my nephews are Lawyers in London and they will be delighted to read your comments! These two guys made it!
Friday, November 13th 2009 at 23:43 |
Nice one Ramanaji. You’ve had a lot of experience in dealing with the legal profession, it seems. I agree with you that good, upright lawyers are essential for the maintenance of liberties. The main point of my post was that the lawyer is a professional who is trained to read and interpret the law and this he/she does in order to help people to get justice. It is when they fail to do this and use their profession to help criminals evade justice that there is a misuse of the profession.
Rummuser Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:05
Gaelikaa, there are two issues here. One issue is to take on us the responsibility to decide guilt before it is done so by the system of justice. What lawyer can do this and deny a client with a clear conscience? Gandhi, for all the adoration that he gets was impractical at times. The second is that a criminal too deserves a proper defense to ensure that the punishment meted out to him is in keeping with the offense. Without legal help, he can never be sure about this. On both accounts, a lawyer cannot be selective about choosing his clients. I would expect a lawyer to tell a criminal the probability of all possible outcomes, what he can try and do and leave the decision whether the criminal wants his services or not to the criminal.
Friday, November 13th 2009 at 23:56 |
Exellent presentation of a difficult subject.
Rummuser Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:01
Thank you.
Friday, November 13th 2009 at 23:56 |
Good luck, Ramana, in your choice should you ever need a lawyer. However, I do advise caution since punctuality is the courtesy of kings, and reliablity that of lawyers: The good Ashok who, after all, suggested this week’s subject has not yet come up with the goods (unless my computer is playing up).
U
Grannymar Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 01:06
Ursula, you are not privy to the circumstances as we the members of the LBC are. You know what they say about people who make assumptions…. Did you not read Ashok’s last post?
Ursula Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 01:47
Yes, I did, Grannymar – I was even trying to read between the lines. Am I missing something? If so please do help me out since, as you say, I am “not privy to the circumstances” as members of the consortium are. And yes, Ashok is 20 years old, hardly an age to be taken to task. However, he’s got to learn that if you make grand gestures as he clearly does with his blog one has to follow through.
Please enlighten me: What do ‘they’ say about people making assumptions?
Slightly lost yours,
U
Grannymar Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 02:07
Ursula since you are neither a member of the LBC, or a blog owner and also the fact that this is not my blogging space, I have no need to enlighten you about any of our members. As one of the original four members of the LBC, I consider all our members as a family within a family, and am therefore protective of them no matter what age, culture or creed they are.
Rummuser Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:01
Ursula, Ashok, at the time of announcing the topic last week, offered his excuses for his inability to post on due date as he was preoccupied with a program out of town. I would still plunk for him at a pinch. Now that you know the background, I hope you will too if you ever need one in India.
Ursula Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:17
Thank you, Ramana. And yes, I will.
U
Ashok Reply:
November 15th, 2009 at 12:02
@Ursula: You are not the type to cut people some slack are you?
Kidding. None the less your criticisms are noted although perhaps I would feel less hated if the tone could be more informal and less cynical in nature 
@Ramana Sir: Thank you for being my lawyer! I owe you one.
Ursula Reply:
November 15th, 2009 at 13:31
My dear sweet Ashok, (I may call you this since I have my own homegrown version of a most wonderful 18 year old).
Do I cut people slack? The only person I don’t cut much slack is myself. Yes, I do have a sharp tongue – but there is no malice (most certainly not ‘hate’ as you put it). I challenge others like I would like to be challenged. Give me a good discussion, call it an argument, I love it. It’s all about content not an attack on the other person. For me (unlike for a lawyer) an exchange of views is never about ‘winning’ or ‘being right’. I couldn’t care less about either. For me it’s about intellectual stimulation – a sword fight of minds. Rarely found, unfortunately.
You mention ‘tone’ and ‘informal’. We all have our own signature style – and boy oh boy oh boy haven’t I found it in a language I love, yet is not my mother tongue. You also say ‘cynical’ – a word vastely overused and misunderstood.
Ashok, and maybe with your legal training you might see through this more than most, there is too much mollycoddling in the world of blogging. What is the point of it all if we don’t exchange our views in a frank way? What a waste of time if we don’t learn from each other. I have said it before, and I say it again: It is one of Ramana’s blog’s strong points that he allows discussion without forever trying to “diffuse” and sugar coat everything.
And whilst I normally do hate smileys I like yours though they don’t look anything like you. Insert big grin!
Good to hear from you.
U
Ashok Reply:
November 15th, 2009 at 14:41
@Ursula: Having established the absence of malice and the presence of a unique style of communication backed by a fairly consistent observation of the blogging world, I welcome you as a consortium reader and I look forward to your comments on my blog in all their individuality and zest. Good to hear from you as well!
Rummuser Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 09:26
Now, you sound just like a lawyer should.
Rummuser Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 09:27
We shall settle when we meet in Pune anon.
Ashok Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 10:34
I am guessing that sounding like a lawyer bit was directed towards me. What can I say? 3 years working in this field trains us to recognise hostility in expression as different from hostility in ideas. For example, when lawyers face each other in court, there is hostility in expression. We are sworn rivals in the courtroom and outside (within the scope of conflicting interests of our clients); but work apart we are as good as blokes who either are friends or don’t know enough about each other to hate.
As far as the settlement is concerned, completely okay with me. However, in the spirit of appreciating my situation as a student, might I consider that a level of leniency will be shown to me?
None the less you have always been kind to me and to say that I am greatful, is an understatement 
Rummuser Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 17:12
My response was strictly for your comment – “I owe you one.”
Saturday, November 14th 2009 at 03:11 |
It could be that Indian lawyers behave differently and are more worthy or respect than those in the Anglo/European nations (?)!
Rummuser Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:58
Possible. We are right now seeing big drama in our Supreme Court between two sets of high powered lawyers representing opposing camps of two companies headed by two brothers. Some sparks are flying and the counsel for the government, another high profile lawyer too is featuring prominently. There are no jokes about any of them however!
Saturday, November 14th 2009 at 04:04 |
Hey …there’s lawyers and, then again, there’s lawyers.
I was once told by a police officer parent of a pupil that a police force reflects the society from which it is drawn.
Ursula Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:25
Magpie, “that a police force reflects the society from which it is drawn” is a fascinating assertion and would make one hell of a wonderful topic for discussion.
Superficially drawing on my own experience of many a country it doesn’t always tally – at least not at first glance. Look at the Spanish – as a society they couldn’t be more relaxed, if somewhat emotionally intense, like all people in hot countries. Yet, their police is awesomely macho. You don’t want to mess with them; and I do not recommend a French policeman’s attention either unless you can talk your way out of a sealed box. They mean business with a big B. Famous french charm? My foot. Italians – again – macho but at least with a twinkle in their eyes (if you are a woman). German police is extremely polite and more lenient than any other I have encountered; the Swiss, well they are Swiss. And what of the British? They truly live up to the image of the polite Englishman (within the limits of human patience). I won’t stray into Hongkong or any other places I have first hand experience of. If the above makes me sound like a drug dealer or a prostitute I am not. And don’t get me onto the Belgiums. They do have the most ridiculous speed limits on their motorways which I am not willing to adhere to when driving through their country. In eighteen years I have not once been caught by them for speeding (touch wood). Where are they hiding in a country as flat as a pancake?
Yes, Magpie, fascinating subject you raised.
So, Ramana, what about the Indian long arm of the law? Indeed, that of your readers in America?
U
Rummuser Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:54
Ursula, I am a law abiding citizen! I have had only one direct experience with the long arm of Indian Law and I have already posted about it, both in this post and the link that I have given. The circumstances then were different. Whatever little personal experience that I have had with the Indian Police has been good. They, like the police forces of most places are overworked and underpaid and made to be villains more than they deserve. There are corrupt elements in them as one reads in the papers, but by and large, they seem to be doing a decent enough job. I am one of the advocates of doubling their numbers and income so that they can do a better job than they are doing now, to speed up investigations and deliver justice faster than they do now. I leave my American readers to respond to your query about their own police forces.
Rummuser Reply:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:54
I agree entirely with what the parent said.
Saturday, November 14th 2009 at 11:09 |
Ramana, this is what I wrote to Grannymar on her own blog a minute ago. I hope you won’t mind me pasting it onto yours considering her comment to me here, 14 Nov, 0207 your time. Frankly, I don’t understand her.
“I am getting a little tired of your continued bullying me regarding running my own blog.
Not everyone who visits a concert plays the piano or the harp. Not everyone who reads – and appreciates a book – does write one himself. Are you implying – as you did once more on Ramana’s latest posting in response to me – that I am not qualified or desired to comment on other people’s blogs because I don’t write one myself? You say that you are protective of the consortium, your “blog family”. Leaving aside the question why you need to protect anyone from me: Protective is good, excluding newcomers to any playground is mean.”
U
Saturday, November 14th 2009 at 11:59 |
Ramana, Your kindness and patience is amazing.
Rummuser Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 09:34
Thank you Brighid. I try to please!
Saturday, November 14th 2009 at 19:12 |
Currently the British police are having a bad press…due to the inevitable “bad apples”.
The circumstances of the comment were interesting…we were waiting to take a group of children to a Chess tournament, a few had yet to arrive at the station, when we saw some activity and the parent recognised colleagues, It was obviously an “opertation”. At that time there was a lot of press about Police Corruption so I asked if it was likely to be true.
I received the reply quoted.
Now for the denouement: The person in question had been a missionary and his wife was involved in education. He was a good man.
The last I heard of him was that he was being investigated for “keeping photographs of young people on his computer”. That was five or more years ago.
Rummuser Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 09:33
Yes, a very good man indeed!
magpie11 Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 19:32
I assume that that is your tongue in your cheek?
He always appeared to be a good man…. these investigations usually have some foundation in fact…..
Rummuser Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 21:57
You assume right sir!
Saturday, November 14th 2009 at 20:39 |
Perhaps it is in knowing individual personalities of police officers that I form my oprinion. My daughter is fairly easy going, a problem solver, and not prone to pre-judging or prejudice or so I hope. On the other hand, I have seen officers that were probably the bully of the classroom early in life.
I know it is a stressful job. I know too many criminals prefer suicide by police gunfire to taking their own life and I know that sometimes an officer shoots too quickly. The United States if far from perfect and I believe that our police forces reflect both the best and the worst of law enforcement.
Rummuser Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 09:32
I think that the same can be said of all police forces all over the world. They are all usually overworked and underpaid with never enough people to take care of what needs to be.
Sunday, November 15th 2009 at 05:06 |
I’m more concerned about what my law makers in Congress are doing than in what lawyers are doing. There’s a lot of wheeling and dealing going on behind closed doors. It’s hard to believe my interests are their main concern.
Rummuser Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 09:28
Excellent observation there Jean. I can say the same thing about our lawmakers too.
Sunday, November 15th 2009 at 14:46 |
I agree with Ursula about working through disagreements. The blogosphere tends to be collections of people who agree with one another. Nice in some ways unhealthy in others.
I also agree that the disagreements should be about evidence and argument not attacking the person. I really believe it’s possible to learn from each other and work through disagreements to resolutions and new formulations.
Rummuser Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 09:25
As, I am used to saying in such situations – Thathaasthu.
Monday, November 16th 2009 at 09:05 |
Actually, Ramana, I could easily envision you as the Indian Perry Mason, a sonorous baritone wielding the King’s English with great dexterity, maidens in the jury box swooning, losing track of the argument – only knowing that you had to be right!
Of course, as far as I actually have experience, your voice may be like that of Pee Wee Herman! But, somehow I doubt that to be so…
Rummuser Reply:
November 16th, 2009 at 09:25
I have been accused of sounding like a fog horn! Watch out for a new post on my voice!
Tuesday, November 17th 2009 at 00:50 |
Wow! What a discussion!
Tuesday, November 17th 2009 at 14:49 |
nothing wrong with lawyers, even in the west
never did know about the story of you being sent to jail until now!!!
Rummuser Reply:
November 18th, 2009 at 21:28
There is a lot that you do not know about the old man young fellow! The next time the mood takes you and you decide to spend some time with me, we shall disappear together for a couple of days and loaf and talk. You can chronicle the family black sheep.