Chuang Tzu and Huih Tzu were crossing The Hao river by strolling over a dam built across it.
Chuang said
“See how the free the fishes leap and dart,
that is their happiness.”
Hui replied
“Since you are not a fish,
how do you know what makes fishes happy?”
Chuang said
“Since you are not I,
how can you possibly know that I do not know what makes fishes happy?”
Hui argued
” If I, not being you, cannot know what you know,
It follows that you not being a fish cannot know what they know.”
Chuang said
“Wait a minute!
Let us get back to the original question.
What you asked me was
‘How do you know what makes fishes happy?
From the term of your question you evidently know
that I know what makes fishes happy.”
“I know the joy of fishes in the river
Through my own joy as I walk along the bank.”
That reminds me of mothers who make their children put on coats because the mother is cold.
Cheerful Monk recently posted..The Inner Game
Rummuser Reply:
April 29th, 2012 at 20:51
I have a naughty response in mine, but will leave it aside for the moment.
Chuang is a self centered twit who shouldn’t transfer his own feelings on fish and fowl. Let me ask him a question: Do the fish feel happier because Chuang is walking along their river? Don’t think so. Unlike humans animals just ARE without reflecting on anything – neither sorrow nor happiness.
U
Ursula recently posted..Call of nature
Rummuser Reply:
April 29th, 2012 at 20:53
I think that the idea of such stories is to provoke many takes on them. Let me say that yours is as valid as anybody else’s.
Fantastic story! Zen is indeed a brilliant school of thought. I shall be sure to use this story wherever the situation asks of it!
Ashok recently posted..Stalking
Rummuser Reply:
April 29th, 2012 at 20:53
And believe me Ashok, situations will arise.
“See how the free the fishes leap and dart.” was a story in itself for me. The remainder was padding and spoiled a moment of nature.
Grannymar recently posted..My point of view
Rummuser Reply:
April 29th, 2012 at 20:54
Yes, that is also part of zen stories. Stories within stories and many interpretations too.
They are arguing past each other. Chuang is interested in the state of the fish: they are happy. Hui is interested in how they became happy.
Rummuser Reply:
April 29th, 2012 at 20:54
So typical of human beings don’t you think>
Clearly it was not near mealtime or they’d have been trying to snatch a fish to eat – the fish’s concerns be damned.
Rummuser Reply:
April 29th, 2012 at 20:55
There! Another take on the story.
And has it occurred to Hui that Chuang might have been a fish in a previous life and so knows very well what makes a fish happy?
Nick recently posted..Cruel cuts
Rummuser Reply:
April 29th, 2012 at 20:56
A most probable explanation indeed.
Chuang is heavily into projection, methinks. Like the rest of us, needs to work on his deficiencies.
XO
WWW
wisewebwoman recently posted..U is for Upalong
Rummuser Reply:
April 29th, 2012 at 20:57
I would imagine that Chuang is the disciple working on his deficiencies!
Beautiful….I am able to know your joy too.
Padmini Natarajan recently posted..DANCE
Rummuser Reply:
April 29th, 2012 at 20:58
You caught that too!
Plenty of replies on which person is correct, whether the fish care and so forth…let along walking along the riverbank and whether one should snatch a fish up for supper…
Over at Cheerful Monk, I have been basically talking about how a certain friend (not exactly one now) believed that the way forward at some point in my life was to get into wearing what I deemed drab and neutral clothing as the colourful stuff wasn’t suitable for a woman my age
It has taken a rather long time to realise that I am absolutely tired of drab and neutral and some of those ‘kept’ items should come out of the closet and go out with me – on me
Cathy in NZ recently posted..Do you remember…MyFilm
Judging from the comments above…I see myself as somewhat shallow. I loved the story. But I left the troubling (to me) circular conversation behind quickly. It would make me happy to imagine that the fish were happy and I would blythely enjoy my bliss while it lasted.
Talk to me…I’m your Mother recently posted..A Visit to the Present